Last week I sent my 17 year old daughter a new study revealing massive pelvic floor problems in TIF taking T. In reached sent me an essay by Julia Serano (transwoman) arguing that TRanswomen are women. I think it’s what you said- I’m trying to show the extreme medical risk of going down this path. And she’s sending me theory written by a cult leader. Very frustrating.
Yep. I sent my 19 yo kid the same one. She literally woman-splained me. I said I have had every one of those symptoms in that article as the result of reduced estrogen or medication induced. They suck and to have to deal with them in your teens and twenties is a travesty. I even quit medications that would have improved my mental health, because of those symptoms as a grown adult. But she said it is all transphobic propaganda or that the doctors assure her its treatable.
All this is fine and good and, perhaps, applicable to therapists only. If a person comes to therapy then, yes, it's appropriate for the therapist to slow down and bring curiosity and not judgement and/or criticism or even advise. As parents we are often blindsided and our input, suggestions, curiosities or worries are taken as 'non-affirmative'. For us it happened so fast and with the back drop of other worrying things going on. As if our questions/objections etc were expected and needed as part of the initiation into the 'club'. I am dearly not sure that any therapist can understand what happens in our homes. Many of these, especially the olders, are provocative, angry and even abusive to their parents especially if they are now on stimulating meds like ritalin. I sense a trend toward parent blaming here. If we aren't to blame for the person/child's self hatred then we are to blame for how we reacted to the crazy things that happened when our beloved adult child came out, bashed us, and ran away. All this advise and suggestions. Is any of it evidence based? I know intentions are good but, again perhaps, we are up against something no one can understand unless they have been there.
I have deep DEEP empathy for your point here but Im going to offer another perspective, or my "take" on where Sasha was going with this.
In my experience listening to GWL from the beginning, I hear Sasha trying to thread a very fine needle between clients, parents, the public on both sides, therapists, and more. Its a tough job to do with polarized factions in all of those categories. And sometimes I think she is very careful to choose non-inflamatory verbiage.
What I believe she means by "conversion experience" is a cult-like religious experience. That experience is considered good if the cult you are joining is Judiasm, Hinduism, christianity, etc. (Im agnostic so I see all religions as "cult prone"). Conversion experience is bad when you are joining a cult like Heavens Gate, or Scientology, Nxium, etc. But the indoctrination can often be the same. I think she was very carefully avoiding using the term "cult" so as notnto be inflamatory and turn people off who may be on the edge of seeing the truth of the scandal.
I believe the point of this whole post was to explain the very important point that cult deprogramming is a particular kind of intervention. You cannot deprogram someone with facts. And parents who try risk alienating the child. So even if they are yelling and screaming at you, you need to use cult deprogramming and de-escalating tactics, not a traditional theraputic, or parental discipline approach.
I have no idea what those tactics are. I only know that my experience with a Borderline child is similar in that most of what you learn as a good, conscientious, sane, educated, authoritative parent is relevant to engaging a Borderline effectively. Likewise, engaging a person entrenched in a cult with tales of an alternate (yet true) reality is not effective unless you have training or have studied or at least considered how to approach a person in a cult. Especially a child.
Its a cult and needs to be approached as such. Thats what I think she was trying to say
I totally hear you. My point is what parent is prepared to follow this thin line when their adult child goes off the deep end? In our case there was no time to engage in any points. Little is written about 'adult' children and I understand how different it is for kids under 18. Most parents are not educated in cult deprogramming nor did they ever think they would need to be. I understand where Sasha is coming from. I just sense that something is missing here. It's appropriate for the therapeutic community to be the focus of this information, but to include parents as those who 'should' be able to stand neutral and curious is, I believe, unrealistic. We parents carry a heavy enough burden of being misunderstood by our own beloved children.
This cult defies what a “normal” cult is. It’s hell for parents, especially adult kids because they can estrange quickly in the name of “transphobia”. I know all too well. And ally siblings estrange to because we should just accept that their sibling can feel like the opposite sex. I never engaged my sons and friend (who was willing to mediate between parents/son because he was doing that at an ivy college) on studies etc. I was truly trying to figure out what it’s like to be a women, cuz at 58, I’m still searching for that meaning.
I agree. I see the shift to seeing this as a cult in Sasha and Stella. I saw it a while ago as I was reading different books on cults. This once may have been gender identity disorder which morphed to gender dysphoria (purposefully) to a social contagion cult that is sanctioned by medicine, therapy and the government.
Sasha, I read your articles about the complexity of a "trans" identification.
Yet in the narrative of every trans-identified person I've ever read or listened to, sooner or later the person reveals, often without realizing it, it seems, that they didn't feel they entirely fit the sex-role stereotypes or expectations for their sex, or that they *did* fit some of the sex-role expectations or stereotypes for the opposite sex, and that this was at least part of the basis for their belief that they are somehow the opposite sex.
In the 1970s, feminists very clearly and widely called out and denounced sex stereotypes everywhere: regarding women in the workforce, pay, job restrictions for women; in clothing expectations, in women's rights to choose, in academics, sports, relationships, interests, etc.
We were qll learning that if we didn't perfectly fit the stereotypes for our sex, it was because they were just stereotypes, and the stereotypes were wrong: not our bodies.
Today, kids get the message that if they dont perfectly fit all the stereotypes for their sex, their bodies, their sex, must be wrong (and by implication, the stereotypes must be true and valid.)
I hear what you're saying here, that parents and therapists trying to appeal to rationality isn't effective: that it's "talking past" the reasons the kid's identify as "trans."
But I wonder if pointing out to kids that sex stereotypes aren't biological fact, they're made up, limiting, dehumanizing, patriarchal nonsense to allow men to dominate women; that none of us perfectly fit all the stereotypes for our sex, they're just stereotypes we don't have to live by, those sorts of messages about sex-role stereotypes, would help young people see through gender identity ideology and eventually walk away from it.
Is this sort of education, about sex-role stereotypes not being biologically innate, something you find doesn't work most of the time, please?
Amongst so many other attempted angles into conversation, I once tried this one with my daughter who delusionally believes she is a boy. I actually even recorded a video of myself talking about these notions and how stereotypical ideas of male and female have been used to keep women down. She responded that she agrees with all of that and thinks that women are amazing and beautiful and powerful and can do whatever they want, wear whatever they want, be whoever they want, but she is just simply not one of them. Not because of misogyny or feeling that she doesn’t measure up, but just because of the “gendered soul” notion. Discussion stopper. “I am enlightened and all accepting, but just not who you think I am.” It made me still believe 100% that I was right, but helped me see that this trans identity is the perfect storm of defenses intensified by the world around her to actually mask deep insecurities and internalized misogyny in a false cloak of self acceptance.
What a brilliant comment, Lisa. Thank you. How amazing you are, as a person, feminist, and Mom. And how revealing that. Even though your daughter qgreed woth you completely, she apparently couldn't see that in herself, as you wrote. That the ideology has erected massive defenses for its followers. Or they have found them. What do you mean by a "gendered soul," please? I've read that phrase many times, but in this particular example, I guess I'm a bit confused.
Anyway, thank you for that insight, that the strategy I propose didn't work. At least in your daughter's situation. And, I would guess from what you wrote, many other's.
I was a bit tongue in cheek with the "gendered soul" comment, as I don't believe in it, but I was using a short cut to say that my daughter falls back on just, "I am trans, I am a man, you can't understand bc you are "cis," so none of you thoughts apply or mean anything, so don't apply any critical thought to it..."
And even though it didn't "work" in terms of leading her to embrace her female sex and see the misogyny in the ideology, I do have to say that she is now 20 1/2, male identified and threatening medicalization since 14, but has not medicalized, so I think some of the countless things I have said and written to her have perhaps "worked" on some level. That's me writing from the glass-half-full-side at the moment; I have equally dark and pessimistic thoughts more of the time.
Thank you for your explanation of what you meant by gendered soul there. I'm so glad your daughter hasn't medicalized! The longer she doesn't, the better the chance shedesist, as you know. I'm so glad you've given it everything you know doubt have got. That she hasn't medcialized, I bet its working more than she wants to admit. Hopefully she's experience what I recently read is being called "reverse dysphoria" or similar: intrusive thoughts of being a woman. I wish all the best for you and her, and look forward to seeing updates from you here
I can’t wait to see you in Lisbon! I’m looking forward to climbing all those hills in free time and to absorbing more ideas about how to climb out of this horror of trans ideology.
Loved Suzanne O'Sullivan's book!! Now reading more by Laurence Kirmayer & Ian Hacking. You should also add Alexandra Stein's book "Love, Terror & Brainwashing" to your TBR pile. Not all of it is great, but interesting how she discusses attachment theory to a cult. Unfortunately, she doesn't outline much in the way of getting out of a cult.
Interesting, Mama Bear. Since you're researching that subject, may I ask if you've found any resources that do provide helpful advice for helping a loved one get out of a cult, please? By any chance, have you read Dr. Margaret Thaler Singer's book. "Cults In Our Midst"? I have it. It was either her book, or items from Steve Hassan's writings online that sounded most useful. I have only helped one person get out of a cult, but she'd just begun to be indoctrinated into it. Things I'd learned from Dr. Singer were useful. But my acquaintance had literally just been to a 3 or 5 day event, and wasn't deep in, at all. So that was pretty easy. I cant say, myself, what would work for someone who's been in one a long time. But I'd recommended Dr. Singer's book highly. I don't recall the details of her recommendations offhand. It's been awhile since I read it.
I have not read "Cults in Our Midst", may add it to my list. I think this is by far the best thing that I have read, "Coping with Cult Involvement" by Livia Bardin, MSW. It's off of ICSA website. It's very short, but chapter seven is guiding conversations to help the indoctrinated into thinking again. It's the critical thinking that helps detach the indoctrinated from the cult even thought they did not get indoctrinated into a cult by critical thinking, but rather some vulnerability or just repeated exposure to false information (Reiterated Illusory Effect). I wish you much luck. My sons are estranged, so I am trying to become prepared incase the ally might reach out.
"Gender" has no application to humans. That's why no one can define it or explain in a logical way how it works.
Men cannot "feel like" they are women. This is not a reality or an identity. It's a symptom of a deeper problem which actually has to be treated. In males it's usually autogynephilia or porn addiction, in females it's usually childhood sexual abuse, depression, or autism.
None of these terms mean anything, "gender dysphoria" or "gender identity" or any of this other bullshit. It's one gigantic fraud. Mental illness exists. "Trans" does not.
That's why these people work so hard to force people to say things, use pronouns, etc.
If you simply refuse to use the language, that's how the agenda begins to die.
So it does everything, as a beginning.
I will never refer to a man as a "trans" woman, or call him "she," or say "gender dysphoria" exists. If lots of people started to do that, that's the beginning of the end.
Why do you think they fight so hard to fire teachers who won't call students "she" if they're male or vice versa?
There's been several of those cases, they sue and win afterwards BTW.
It's the source of the problem. It seems small, but it's everything.
I like and agree with all you're writing here, Kat H. Except I do agree so-called "gender dysphoria" exists, even though it is terribly named. I call it "sex dysphoria," in which someone is disassociating from their body and can't accept their sex. I experienced that at age 5. I really thought I was--and wanted to be--a boy. That doesn't mean I was. I just believed I was. People can have irrational beliefs: those beliefs exist, even if the beliefs are inaccurate.
May I ask what you mean when you say that "gender dysphoria" doesn't exist, please?
Last week I sent my 17 year old daughter a new study revealing massive pelvic floor problems in TIF taking T. In reached sent me an essay by Julia Serano (transwoman) arguing that TRanswomen are women. I think it’s what you said- I’m trying to show the extreme medical risk of going down this path. And she’s sending me theory written by a cult leader. Very frustrating.
There's no such thing as "trans."
Mr. Serano is a man. There is no type of woman who is actually a man.
None of this is real.
Okay, do you think that Muffin Mama doesn’t know that?
Yep. I sent my 19 yo kid the same one. She literally woman-splained me. I said I have had every one of those symptoms in that article as the result of reduced estrogen or medication induced. They suck and to have to deal with them in your teens and twenties is a travesty. I even quit medications that would have improved my mental health, because of those symptoms as a grown adult. But she said it is all transphobic propaganda or that the doctors assure her its treatable.
All this is fine and good and, perhaps, applicable to therapists only. If a person comes to therapy then, yes, it's appropriate for the therapist to slow down and bring curiosity and not judgement and/or criticism or even advise. As parents we are often blindsided and our input, suggestions, curiosities or worries are taken as 'non-affirmative'. For us it happened so fast and with the back drop of other worrying things going on. As if our questions/objections etc were expected and needed as part of the initiation into the 'club'. I am dearly not sure that any therapist can understand what happens in our homes. Many of these, especially the olders, are provocative, angry and even abusive to their parents especially if they are now on stimulating meds like ritalin. I sense a trend toward parent blaming here. If we aren't to blame for the person/child's self hatred then we are to blame for how we reacted to the crazy things that happened when our beloved adult child came out, bashed us, and ran away. All this advise and suggestions. Is any of it evidence based? I know intentions are good but, again perhaps, we are up against something no one can understand unless they have been there.
I have deep DEEP empathy for your point here but Im going to offer another perspective, or my "take" on where Sasha was going with this.
In my experience listening to GWL from the beginning, I hear Sasha trying to thread a very fine needle between clients, parents, the public on both sides, therapists, and more. Its a tough job to do with polarized factions in all of those categories. And sometimes I think she is very careful to choose non-inflamatory verbiage.
What I believe she means by "conversion experience" is a cult-like religious experience. That experience is considered good if the cult you are joining is Judiasm, Hinduism, christianity, etc. (Im agnostic so I see all religions as "cult prone"). Conversion experience is bad when you are joining a cult like Heavens Gate, or Scientology, Nxium, etc. But the indoctrination can often be the same. I think she was very carefully avoiding using the term "cult" so as notnto be inflamatory and turn people off who may be on the edge of seeing the truth of the scandal.
I believe the point of this whole post was to explain the very important point that cult deprogramming is a particular kind of intervention. You cannot deprogram someone with facts. And parents who try risk alienating the child. So even if they are yelling and screaming at you, you need to use cult deprogramming and de-escalating tactics, not a traditional theraputic, or parental discipline approach.
I have no idea what those tactics are. I only know that my experience with a Borderline child is similar in that most of what you learn as a good, conscientious, sane, educated, authoritative parent is relevant to engaging a Borderline effectively. Likewise, engaging a person entrenched in a cult with tales of an alternate (yet true) reality is not effective unless you have training or have studied or at least considered how to approach a person in a cult. Especially a child.
Its a cult and needs to be approached as such. Thats what I think she was trying to say
I totally hear you. My point is what parent is prepared to follow this thin line when their adult child goes off the deep end? In our case there was no time to engage in any points. Little is written about 'adult' children and I understand how different it is for kids under 18. Most parents are not educated in cult deprogramming nor did they ever think they would need to be. I understand where Sasha is coming from. I just sense that something is missing here. It's appropriate for the therapeutic community to be the focus of this information, but to include parents as those who 'should' be able to stand neutral and curious is, I believe, unrealistic. We parents carry a heavy enough burden of being misunderstood by our own beloved children.
This cult defies what a “normal” cult is. It’s hell for parents, especially adult kids because they can estrange quickly in the name of “transphobia”. I know all too well. And ally siblings estrange to because we should just accept that their sibling can feel like the opposite sex. I never engaged my sons and friend (who was willing to mediate between parents/son because he was doing that at an ivy college) on studies etc. I was truly trying to figure out what it’s like to be a women, cuz at 58, I’m still searching for that meaning.
I agree. I see the shift to seeing this as a cult in Sasha and Stella. I saw it a while ago as I was reading different books on cults. This once may have been gender identity disorder which morphed to gender dysphoria (purposefully) to a social contagion cult that is sanctioned by medicine, therapy and the government.
Sasha, I read your articles about the complexity of a "trans" identification.
Yet in the narrative of every trans-identified person I've ever read or listened to, sooner or later the person reveals, often without realizing it, it seems, that they didn't feel they entirely fit the sex-role stereotypes or expectations for their sex, or that they *did* fit some of the sex-role expectations or stereotypes for the opposite sex, and that this was at least part of the basis for their belief that they are somehow the opposite sex.
In the 1970s, feminists very clearly and widely called out and denounced sex stereotypes everywhere: regarding women in the workforce, pay, job restrictions for women; in clothing expectations, in women's rights to choose, in academics, sports, relationships, interests, etc.
We were qll learning that if we didn't perfectly fit the stereotypes for our sex, it was because they were just stereotypes, and the stereotypes were wrong: not our bodies.
Today, kids get the message that if they dont perfectly fit all the stereotypes for their sex, their bodies, their sex, must be wrong (and by implication, the stereotypes must be true and valid.)
I hear what you're saying here, that parents and therapists trying to appeal to rationality isn't effective: that it's "talking past" the reasons the kid's identify as "trans."
But I wonder if pointing out to kids that sex stereotypes aren't biological fact, they're made up, limiting, dehumanizing, patriarchal nonsense to allow men to dominate women; that none of us perfectly fit all the stereotypes for our sex, they're just stereotypes we don't have to live by, those sorts of messages about sex-role stereotypes, would help young people see through gender identity ideology and eventually walk away from it.
Is this sort of education, about sex-role stereotypes not being biologically innate, something you find doesn't work most of the time, please?
Amongst so many other attempted angles into conversation, I once tried this one with my daughter who delusionally believes she is a boy. I actually even recorded a video of myself talking about these notions and how stereotypical ideas of male and female have been used to keep women down. She responded that she agrees with all of that and thinks that women are amazing and beautiful and powerful and can do whatever they want, wear whatever they want, be whoever they want, but she is just simply not one of them. Not because of misogyny or feeling that she doesn’t measure up, but just because of the “gendered soul” notion. Discussion stopper. “I am enlightened and all accepting, but just not who you think I am.” It made me still believe 100% that I was right, but helped me see that this trans identity is the perfect storm of defenses intensified by the world around her to actually mask deep insecurities and internalized misogyny in a false cloak of self acceptance.
What a brilliant comment, Lisa. Thank you. How amazing you are, as a person, feminist, and Mom. And how revealing that. Even though your daughter qgreed woth you completely, she apparently couldn't see that in herself, as you wrote. That the ideology has erected massive defenses for its followers. Or they have found them. What do you mean by a "gendered soul," please? I've read that phrase many times, but in this particular example, I guess I'm a bit confused.
Anyway, thank you for that insight, that the strategy I propose didn't work. At least in your daughter's situation. And, I would guess from what you wrote, many other's.
I was a bit tongue in cheek with the "gendered soul" comment, as I don't believe in it, but I was using a short cut to say that my daughter falls back on just, "I am trans, I am a man, you can't understand bc you are "cis," so none of you thoughts apply or mean anything, so don't apply any critical thought to it..."
And even though it didn't "work" in terms of leading her to embrace her female sex and see the misogyny in the ideology, I do have to say that she is now 20 1/2, male identified and threatening medicalization since 14, but has not medicalized, so I think some of the countless things I have said and written to her have perhaps "worked" on some level. That's me writing from the glass-half-full-side at the moment; I have equally dark and pessimistic thoughts more of the time.
This sounds a lot like my daughter. Same age. Same trajectory. Same women are great, but that’s not who I am.
Thank you for your explanation of what you meant by gendered soul there. I'm so glad your daughter hasn't medicalized! The longer she doesn't, the better the chance shedesist, as you know. I'm so glad you've given it everything you know doubt have got. That she hasn't medcialized, I bet its working more than she wants to admit. Hopefully she's experience what I recently read is being called "reverse dysphoria" or similar: intrusive thoughts of being a woman. I wish all the best for you and her, and look forward to seeing updates from you here
Please forgive all my typos!
I can’t wait to see you in Lisbon! I’m looking forward to climbing all those hills in free time and to absorbing more ideas about how to climb out of this horror of trans ideology.
Loved Suzanne O'Sullivan's book!! Now reading more by Laurence Kirmayer & Ian Hacking. You should also add Alexandra Stein's book "Love, Terror & Brainwashing" to your TBR pile. Not all of it is great, but interesting how she discusses attachment theory to a cult. Unfortunately, she doesn't outline much in the way of getting out of a cult.
Interesting, Mama Bear. Since you're researching that subject, may I ask if you've found any resources that do provide helpful advice for helping a loved one get out of a cult, please? By any chance, have you read Dr. Margaret Thaler Singer's book. "Cults In Our Midst"? I have it. It was either her book, or items from Steve Hassan's writings online that sounded most useful. I have only helped one person get out of a cult, but she'd just begun to be indoctrinated into it. Things I'd learned from Dr. Singer were useful. But my acquaintance had literally just been to a 3 or 5 day event, and wasn't deep in, at all. So that was pretty easy. I cant say, myself, what would work for someone who's been in one a long time. But I'd recommended Dr. Singer's book highly. I don't recall the details of her recommendations offhand. It's been awhile since I read it.
I have not read "Cults in Our Midst", may add it to my list. I think this is by far the best thing that I have read, "Coping with Cult Involvement" by Livia Bardin, MSW. It's off of ICSA website. It's very short, but chapter seven is guiding conversations to help the indoctrinated into thinking again. It's the critical thinking that helps detach the indoctrinated from the cult even thought they did not get indoctrinated into a cult by critical thinking, but rather some vulnerability or just repeated exposure to false information (Reiterated Illusory Effect). I wish you much luck. My sons are estranged, so I am trying to become prepared incase the ally might reach out.
It's just easier to say "trans" does not exist.
"Gender" has no application to humans. That's why no one can define it or explain in a logical way how it works.
Men cannot "feel like" they are women. This is not a reality or an identity. It's a symptom of a deeper problem which actually has to be treated. In males it's usually autogynephilia or porn addiction, in females it's usually childhood sexual abuse, depression, or autism.
None of these terms mean anything, "gender dysphoria" or "gender identity" or any of this other bullshit. It's one gigantic fraud. Mental illness exists. "Trans" does not.
While this may be true, trying to remove such words and categories in the zeitgeist does nothing, IMHO.
It's the source of the problem.
That's why these people work so hard to force people to say things, use pronouns, etc.
If you simply refuse to use the language, that's how the agenda begins to die.
So it does everything, as a beginning.
I will never refer to a man as a "trans" woman, or call him "she," or say "gender dysphoria" exists. If lots of people started to do that, that's the beginning of the end.
Why do you think they fight so hard to fire teachers who won't call students "she" if they're male or vice versa?
There's been several of those cases, they sue and win afterwards BTW.
It's the source of the problem. It seems small, but it's everything.
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/california-district-pay-360k-teacher-fired-not-transgender-policies-rcna152772
I like and agree with all you're writing here, Kat H. Except I do agree so-called "gender dysphoria" exists, even though it is terribly named. I call it "sex dysphoria," in which someone is disassociating from their body and can't accept their sex. I experienced that at age 5. I really thought I was--and wanted to be--a boy. That doesn't mean I was. I just believed I was. People can have irrational beliefs: those beliefs exist, even if the beliefs are inaccurate.
May I ask what you mean when you say that "gender dysphoria" doesn't exist, please?
Ersatz spirituality. A substitution that is not as good as the original thing that is missing.
Thank you very much, Sasha.
What do you mean by "spiritual," please? I don't understand that term.
Agree 100%